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[GF] ωZ2 0 - 2 GAMT

Discussion in 'Division 3: Mushroom' started by TK64, Apr 9, 2017.

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  1. Stunky

    Stunky Tom | Stunky Staff Member WL Staff

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    They're well within their right to submit a penalty - the fact that it could decide a final is absolutely no excuse (whether morally or ethically wrong to people) to not actually submit something they feel could be penalised. If you had a final that was this close and a penalty could decide it, would you, in their position of a team that was originally predicted to get last in the division, just decide to let penalties slide? Given some of the penalty submissions we've seen prior in the league, they're well within their rights to be submitting this one.
     
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  2. rubified

    rubified

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    Yes, I'd let it slide because there's nothing to penalize since the outcome didn't change, it would've been a tie with or without the troll, I would absolutely not try to win off that.
     
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  3. George

    George Banned ;_;

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    But surely CT council should be following the same logic as RT council as the rules for trolling are the same for both. I saw some of these decisions and adapted by bagging strategy accordingly so i would not get penalised. The rules are the same and decisions should be consistent whether or not you think it is a troll or not.

    I would say it is only fair that one of our reps is able to discus the decision with the council whilst it is being made. Definitely should not be a non-council member from one team influencing decisions.

    Summary of why i think it should be a -5 penalty:

    -It lap 3 of 5 and you would never know what would happen if he was not trolled. Just because he got first we might have had an opportunity to use shock earlier due to our first havin a larger break so if he got blued he would still be ahead of our 2nd and not at risk of getting combo'd by the wZ member who was 3rd. If we used shock earlier we could have quite easily got a top 3.

    -Similar trolls have been given -5 penalties that were on the last lap not mid race and would have affected the race even less (see previous messages)

    -The bagging positions swapped round due to Killua bumping our first place and therefore being able to take a faster line. This therefore made it more difficult for us to get shock.

    -It was a clear troll that made our first place lose 2/3 seconds. If he had ended up coming 3rd meaning wZ got 2nd, it would have been given as a -5 penalty based on what I have been told. wZ would have gained 4 points but than lost 5 because of this meaning we would have won by 1. Therefore it feels like we are being punished just because Mark played the rest of the race very well.

    -We were holding blue around 4th for half the race but as mark had less of a break we could not throw it at him as it would have meant that he would be in 2nd after and could get hit by the wZ member. However with no troll he could be blued and still be 1st with our 2nd place player protecting in case the wZ member gets reds.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2017
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  4. MasterMarkxat

    MasterMarkxat

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    Next time I'll just slow down I guess, but I'll probably be given a penalty for penalty seeking then :shrug:
     
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  5. Killua

    Killua 私はアダージョが大好き

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    you won't be given a penalty for that, there was a case where Javo blatantly ran into someone's star on purpose on rDS and there wasn't a penalty for either side
     
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  6. Quinten

    Quinten WL Staff

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  7. Delecto

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  8. DatRaptor

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    All of those troll were cases on regular tracks, the councils for CTs and regular tracks are different.

    I brought that up in to the decision making, but i am not really sure why it never was discussed any further. If you can provide proof that one of your team was holding the blue and couldnt throw it, i am almost 100% sure it will change the council verdict.

    Also i am pretty sure there was a szenario (dont have the gif yet unfortunately) where ruso was starred off or bumped off in last on Bassbasher city, but it was still counted as a -0 verdict, simply because we applied logic and it was IMPOSSIBLE for him to get any more spots.
     
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  9. Ryou Chan

    Ryou Chan WL Staff

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    If i follow this logic, that mean we can troll and doesn't count it cuz it's final ?

    Imo, If the 1st didn't lose his spot after this or no shocks happened after this then i understand about a -0. But wondering why the bagger took so tight.
     
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  10. Vien

    Vien

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    cmon gamt I fought hard for this

    dont let me down pls
     
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  11. rubified

    rubified

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    >off a troll that didn't affect the race at all whatsoever

    I wouldn't care if the troll actually caused gamt to tie instead of win, then they could do it for all I care. It's only fair. But the result stayed the same, regardless of mark getting bumped or not. Outcome didn't change. Race wasn't affected at all. So why try to cheese a win off that?
     
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  12. George

    George Banned ;_;

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    As i said before due to us havin to hold blue and delay shock it did affect the outcome..
     
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  13. rubified

    rubified

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    And that could all be spew. Give me proof that it legitimately forced you guys to hold blue and delay shock and therefore not get as good race as you should've. Then I'll change my mind on this case, not that my opinion matters at all anyways.
     
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  14. #Luna

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  15. George

    George Banned ;_;

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    i have no proof of the blue as arvo wasn't recording however you can watch the race back to see we used a late shock
     
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  16. Lionn

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    I had a dream! ....
     
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  17. Ryou Chan

    Ryou Chan WL Staff

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    Well i'm not for GAMT or wZ. But Looks like GAMT was holding the shock and bagger's lines was really risky (maybe because the other bagger was really close), even with this risky line he didn't pull shock and touch a racer, i think he should be penalize for that and because the shock call could be affected of that.

    I think after this season, ruleset will be change because of this kind of penalities.

    I think i'll be in cold with a good part of community after this for nothing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2017
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  18. MasterMarkxat

    MasterMarkxat

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    http://www.forums.mkboards.com/threads/w5-oz-359-363-kg.30671/#post-641817
    I feel like this post summarizes quite well how our situation was as well, clearly in points 2 and 3 are our arguments the same to why a penalty should be given.

    Especially the quotes
    "A penalty of 0 points implies that with absolute certainty, the trolling incident did not negatively affect the individual's or team's result in any way. Therefore, in this situation, the burden of proof is on the anti-penalty side to prove that KG could not, under any reasonable circumstance, have gotten a better race had the bump not occurred."

    and
    "It it impossible to definitively prove that KG could not have gotten a better race without the bump. KG's runners got 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 7th during the race, and although the council recognizes that it is unlikely that KG would have gotten a better race, it it impossible to prove that KG would absolutely not have gotten a better race."

    KG were not forced to prove that they could've gotten a better race than they got, (KG actually got top 3,7) and still managed to get the penalty through.

    The quote of KG not hav,ing to post proof of them being able to get a better race without the troll is located here

    "Because Duqee got 1st, he, by himself, did not end up negatively affected by the race. However, when calculating the final score of the war, it is insufficient to only consider what happened to Duqee. As section 2 explains, it is impossible to prove that KG could not, under any reasonable circumstance, have gotten a better race had the bump not occurred. Again, the council recognizes that it is unlikely that KG could have gotten a better race, but because it cannot be proven that KG could not have gotten a better race, a penalty of 0 points is not given."

    I am fully aware that Sane is not in CT Council, but as the season has progressed we have all pleaded for consistency within the council itself, and I believe that there shouldn't be these differences between council, especially in such an important match. In KG's case they managed to get a -10 penalty through, and I can see many similar things between both trolls. Even if it doesn't justify a -10 penalty by itself, surely it is a -5 then.

    On behalf of GAMT this is our final push, unless someone has some valid arguments against our case that haven't already been provided.
     
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  19. TK64

    TK64

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    in that case the fact that duqee still finished 1st anyways wasn't considered because the bump sent him from 1st to a bottom spot and changed everyone's spots, therefore greatly affecting how the rest of the race went (although it ended up being overall beneficial to KG). for the record i still think it's bs that we got penalized for that and lost the war off it but just saying what the council's logic was (wZ runs the league haHAA)

    in your case the person bumped had a lead and never dropped out of 1st for the remainder of the race, therefore the troll affected nothing in the race (you can save the whole "we had to use shock later" shit because that's simply bull, shocking earlier would not have affected your top 2 breakaway). that's the difference between the two cases.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2017
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  20. Munckeyz

    Munckeyz yeah

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  21. Tyler

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    with the way the current rules are written and used, a troll on 1st place causing them to lose a few seconds should always be penalized because that few seconds could be the deciding factor in whether a blue shell ends their race or not, also not to mention that in this particular case wZ's bagger benefited heavily by being less careful than GAMT's bagger.

    i totally agree that the current state of penalties is stupid and i think we should change it up to prevent this shit happening but nobody cares when good suggestions are made. people complain and complain about the current rules but never wanna change anything.

    theres 2 potential solutions, not penalizing any unintentional bumps and leaving more up to the racer to avoid (they avoid the other racer's items anyway) as suggested by myself, or making a more fair penalty system, something like making the penalty size the victim's points subtracted from the opponent's highest spot as suggested by my good friend joseph (although this could potentially be abused in some situations.)

    if nothing changes before next season this game is just going to further devolve into the degenerate meta which is a stunning act i'm not looking to commit.
     
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  22. Frozone

    Frozone Banned ;_;

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    Winning by penalties in 2017 finals. Good try
     
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  23. rcs

    rcs

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  24. xSpade24

    xSpade24

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    Go WOR wZ!
     
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  25. Christan

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    yo rcs can i have a like too?
     
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